Cynnwys
Contents

4 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

4 Gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd: Monitro’r Trafodaethau—Sesiwn â Llysgennad Estonia

Leaving the European Union: Monitoring the Negotiations—Session with the Estonian Ambassador

17 Papurau i’w Nodi

Papers to Note

17 Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd am Weddill y Cyfarfod

Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance

Dawn Bowden
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Michelle Brown
Bywgraffiad|Biography

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

Mark Isherwood
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Jeremy Miles
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Eluned Morgan
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

David Rees
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
Labour (Committee Chair)

Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance

His Excellency/

Ei Ardderchogrwydd Lauri Bambus

Llysgennad Estonia i'r Llys Sant Iago

Estonian Ambassador to the Court of St James

Triinu Rajasalu

Cwnselydd Diplomyddiaeth Cyhoeddus a Chyswllt â'r Cyfryngau, Llysgenhadaeth Estonia

Counsellor of Public Diplomacy and Media Relations, Embassy of Estonia

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance

Alun Davidson

Clerc
Clerk

Rhys Morgan

Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Nia Moss

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil

Research Service

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:21.
The meeting began at 14:21.

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1] David Rees: Good afternoon. Can I welcome Members and the public to this afternoon’s session of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee? Before we start our business this afternoon, can I remind everyone to either turn your mobile phones off or on silent, to make sure they do not interfere with the broadcasting equipment? Can I also remind everyone that the meeting is bilingual? If there’s a need for simultaneous translation from Welsh to English, the headphones are available. Channel 1 for simultaneous translation. If you require amplification this afternoon, that’s available via the headphones on channel 0. There are no scheduled fire alarms this afternoon, so if one does occur, please follow the directions of the ushers. We have received apologies from Steffan Lewis and Jeremy Miles, who has indicated he will be arriving later during the session.

14:22

Gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd: Monitro’r Trafodaethau—Sesiwn â Llysgennad Estonia
Leaving the European Union: Monitoring the Negotiations—Session with the Estonian Ambassador

[2] David Rees: We move on to our main item of business this afternoon, in our remit of looking at how the decision to leave the EU impacts upon Wales and Welsh citizens. We welcome His Excellency the ambassador to Estonia. Estonia is now holding the presidency of the EU for the next six months. Good afternoon. Would you like to introduce yourself and your colleague for the record?

[3] His Excellency Mr Lauri Bambus: Thank you very much indeed. I am Lauri Bambus, Estonian ambassador to the United Kingdom since 2014. I am also delighted to have with me my colleague Triinu Rajasalu from the Estonian embassy. Thank you very much indeed for having us today in the Senedd. It’s a great pleasure to discuss, maybe, the Estonian presidency issues and the questions that are ahead of us, not only during the Estonian Presidency of the Council of the European Union, but also during the trio presidency, which started with Estonia and then will be followed by Bulgaria an then Austria.

[4] David Rees: Thank you, and thank you for coming this afternoon. Clearly, you’ve taken over the presidency at a very important time as the negotiations for the decision of the UK to leave really get under way. In fact, there’s one happening today. But it’s also a difficult time, I would think, for the EU27 as well. What do you see as the role Estonia will be playing now in those negotiations and, as you say, the trio that takes place following yourself as well?

[5] Mr Bambus: First of all, of course, I have to say that Estonia started the preparation for its presidency of the Council of the European Union five years ago. Nobody knew then that one EU member state was going to leave. Due to last year’s course, Estonia now holds the presidency from 1 July to 31 December this year, rather than holding the presidency of the EU next year. However, Estonia, as other member states, respects the decision of the British people and the Government of the United Kingdom to leave. You mentioned correctly that now we have the second round of the negotiations between the United Kingdom and the European Union on the conditions of the UK leaving the EU. However, as I mentioned, Estonia started the preparation five years ago, and then we put our goals and our tasks forward to our presidency, and they were related more to digital and information technology issues, but also a secure and safe Europe et cetera. It means that, even today, we would like to continue and carry on with those priorities that we set out in front of us five years ago. If I may, just to remind you that these four focused areas where we would like to achieve some kind of developments are: an open and innovative European economy; a safe and secure Europe, as I mentioned; a digital Europe and the free movement of data; and an inclusive and sustainable Europe.

[6] If I may, then, just briefly, say a few words about all of these four priority blocks, first of all, about the open and innovative European economy, we consider that an open and innovative European economy means developing a business environment that supports knowledge-based growth and competitiveness. To this end, Estonia would like to focus during its presidency on protecting and promoting the European Union’s four freedoms, namely free movement of goods, persons, services and capital; making sure that providing services and starting a business in the EU is as easy as possible; and advancing trade negotiations. We have seen already that there is some progress with some countries, namely with Japan, for example, but we would definitely like to continue this work. Under the open European economy, we also mean creating new funding opportunities for companies and ensuring a stable banking sector, establishing a stable and well-functioning electricity market and empowering consumers et cetera.

[7] Talking about the safe and secure Europe, which is also very important for Estonia, as you may know, next to Europe there are many threats facing us from the east but also from the south—different kinds of threats, so we have to challenge them—and not only the ordinary or physical threat but the cyber threat, which is well known in Estonia already from 2007, when we faced the first major cyber attack from one country. Only by acting together, we really see that by preserving its unity on the global stage, the European Union keeps its citizens safe and promotes peace, prosperity and stability. In the same chapter of the issues, we also find that it is of the utmost importance to fight against terrorism and crime, and we have shown solidarity with the British people, as we have shown the same solidarity in other European countries in which nationals have suffered and lost their lives—we have to fight against it all together.

[8] Talking also about safety and security, we think that we have to be united in the challenges related to migration and migration flows that are coming from certain countries, also from the south of the European Union and from the south-east of the European Union. By continuing the work tackling the migration crisis and reforming the common European asylum system, we hope to find the solution somehow.

[9] Estonia has been, for a very long time, the advocate for the eastern partnership, and we would like to continue to support eastern partnership countries, namely Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Belarus, and Armenia. This work should be carried on further during the Estonian presidency as we will see the eastern partnership summit in Brussels in September.

[10] I am also delighted to say that for Estonia digital issues have been always very important, and digital Europe and the free movement of data is one of the priorities we would like to bring to the attention of other European member states. Europe must exploit the benefits of the technology progress that is resulting in constant change for citizens, businesses and governments. To this end, Estonia will focus on developing cross-border e-commerce and e-services for the benefit of consumers, producers and businesses, ensuring modern and secure electronic communications, available everywhere across Europe, as well as creating a favourable environment for new innovative services. Estonia has been developing its e-services already, since regaining independence from 1991, and we know that, with the co-operation between the private sector, public sector and academia, we can achieve the services that are favourable and easy to use for its nationals and citizens and businesses. So, we really hope to bring, from our own experiences, the benefits to other member states, and, as mentioned, not only the nationals but also the businesses.

14:30

[11] As I said, also, the fourth priority block concerns an inclusive and sustainable Europe, which supports equal opportunities for high-quality education, employment, access to services and development of skills. A sustainable Europe cares about and is committed to achieving a cleaner environment, and we are committed to carry on with the Paris convention about the environment issues.

[12] Talking about the challenges ahead, we completely understand that, during our presidency, there will be many rounds, also, of negotiations between the United Kingdom and European Union, but we also find it’s of utmost importance to solve, first of all, the first block of issues, namely concerning the nationals, the citizens, then Northern Ireland, and also talk very clearly about the financial issues. However, once again, I’d like to stress that Estonia, as an EU member state that is carrying the presidency, would like to carry on with these priorities, which I named. But, once again, thank you very much indeed for having us today here in the Senedd, and I would be pleased if you have any comments or questions to the presidency.

[13] David Rees: Thank you for that. I’m sure we’ve got some comments and questions. First of all, perhaps I’ll open up, and then I know some Members will ask as well. You mentioned the four freedoms in your opening aspect of the first of your priorities. Clearly, this weekend we’ve heard from a former Prime Minister a claim that they may be, possibly, changed. Does Estonia have any views on the possibility of weakening any of those four freedoms?

[14] Mr Bambus: Officially, we are talking now about four freedoms, but as I mentioned maybe already, we have the fifth freedom: movement of data. It’s really important that the exchange of data would be smooth between member states and would facilitate the businesses and also the wealth of nationals who are moving from one country to another one within the European Union. So, I sincerely hope that we could develop all those freedoms further on. As regards the relationship or partnership with the United Kingdom, I think that there are still quite many open issues, and the first, and, for nationals, for citizens, the most important—free movement of people—must be cleared up as soon as possible, so, hopefully by October.

[15] David Rees: Thank you. Michelle first and then Mark.

[16] Michelle Brown: Thank you. It’s nice to meet you, Ambassador. I just wanted to ask you what kind of influence you think that the Welsh Government—and any comments or objectives that the Welsh Government might have—how much influence will that have, do you think, on the Brexit negotiations, on the way of thinking of the other EU states?

[17] Mr Bambus: Thank you. Estonian presidency, one slogan or—. I would like to even refer to our president, Ms Kersti Kaljulaid, who has clearly said that, well, everybody has his or her own voice and everybody must be heard. During the Estonian presidency, we also pay a lot of attention to regional co-operation and the regions have to be also heard—what are the important issues for everybody, and for each region.

[18] It’s, of course, very difficult to comment on behalf of the EU—or I might say the member states of the European Union—on the internal relationship between the countries within the UK, but, definitely, I think that, first of all, it must be a consensus reached between the countries inside the United Kingdom, and then to talk to the European Union during the negotiations about what kind of partnership will be in the future. But I am absolutely confident and sure that all regions have their interest in and influence on the future relationship between the UK and the European Union.

[19] Michelle Brown: What weight do you think—? How much weight do you think the objectives and comments of the Welsh Government will have?

[20] Mr Bambus: I’m sure that—. Well, it is important, once again, to know what are the main objectives of each region, including the Welsh, but I think that it’s, right now, difficult to say exactly how far and how deep the negotiations will go on, within the next months or during the next one-and-a-half years, but definitely there must be the influence on the whole package of negotiations. But, once again, it depends very much on each region and what the important issues are for the local businesses, for the local nationals. Today, I had a very good meeting with your First Minister, and we discussed also the economic situation in Wales, also, the opportunities to develop the bilateral relations between the different countries—not only with the European Union—although, now, Wales has a very big percentage of its exports and imports related to the European Union member states. So, once again, I’m absolutely sure that Wales should and will have a big voice in the whole negotiation process.

[21] Michelle Brown: Okay. Thank you.

[22] David Rees: You’ve stressed that Estonia has a very strong belief in the regions, and it will be listening to all regions as part of its presidency. Will you be taking that message also to the other two nations in the trio to ensure that that consistency applies over the next 18 months?

[23] Mr Bambus: I hope so. I hope so, because, well, it has been already a long time criticised that the European Union is not too much about the ordinary citizens or its ordinary nationals, and I’m quite confident that it’s now time to listen to what people really need, and what the European Union, the member states, the Governments—starting from the local government routes—could do for its nationals and to promote the businesses. Once again, I think that it’s not only the traditional businesses, but also the digital single market that we are promoting during our presidency.

[24] David Rees: Thank you. Mark.

[25] Mark Isherwood: Thank you. Afternoon.

[26] Mr Bambus: Good afternoon.

[27] Mark Isherwood: As you know, the EU has said that it will only consider opening discussions on trade arrangements after it is satisfied that progress has been achieved on the withdrawal agreement. You said earlier you hope that free movement will be cleared up by October. Of course, the withdrawal agreement—the citizens’ rights element—applies to EU citizens who are in the UK, and UK citizens in the EU, rather than the free movement issue. The question that I think was raised by comments by a former Prime Minister this weekend related to single market access and discussions he said he had had with European friends that had led him to believe that single market access might be possible without compliance with free movement. I just wonder if you have any observations on those reported comments at the weekend in that context.

[28] Mr Bambus: I think it’s still too early to say exactly how far we can reach during the negotiations, because they just today started the second round of negotiations, and, well, as I mentioned, there are two or three very important issues to solve, including the EU nationals who are living in the UK and also the British nationals who are living in the European Union member states and their futures, because I think that uncertainty, which is still in the air, must be solved, and then we can go further. How quick the negotiations could be—I’m really very sorry to say I don’t know. And, how can we influence on that? I also don’t foresee, because it means that, well, from both sides, both parties have to be on the same page, not to say that, ‘Well, we would like to have access to the single market or to the customs union, but, well, let’s leave the free movement of people to the next stage.’

[29] Talking about the unity and the whole EU, I’m also sure that our British colleagues and friends know very well how the European Union functions, and there are quite clear rules on how, if I may say, the ‘club’ works, that you can’t be outside of the club and have the same access or benefits as the other member states do. And, in this respect, of course, it will be difficult to, maybe—let’s say challenging to explain that it’s not always possible to get what maybe the other party would like to achieve. I don’t know how to say, in a very polite way, this. [Laughter.] But—

[30] David Rees: Yes, I think we get the message.

[31] Mr Bambus: Yes. [Laughter.] I’m trying to say that—well, I’m aware of the Chancellor’s statements and also the statements of other members of the Government, and we see there, also, not always, unanimity; sometimes there are also different opinions, but I would not comment on the work of the British Government before the preparations for the negotiations. So, we are talking now about the EU perspective, and we would like to see a very clear message from the British Government, and, as I said, I very much hope that it’s also reached after the talks with the countries: Wales, Northern Ireland, England, and also Scotland.

[32] David Rees: Thank you. I think you cleared that. Eluned.

[33] Eluned Morgan: I just wonder if you could tell us about how many EU migrants are in Estonia.

[34] Mr Bambus: Not too many, not too many.

[35] Eluned Morgan: So, can you give us a figure?

[36] Mr Bambus: I may, of course, check it out and then say how many EU migrants we do have. So, I’m afraid that today I cannot tell the concrete figure, but sometimes I have been—

[37] Ms Rajasalu: Just give me a moment.

[38] Eluned Morgan: Okay.

[39] Mr Bambus: Yes, my colleague will say.

[40] Ms Rajasalu: Mostly Finns and Swedes.

[41] Mr Bambus: Yes, as neighbouring countries. We mostly have our neighbours in Estonia for business, but also studying, for example. The same concerns Estonians; so, Estonians are also mostly living in Finland. I’ve been asked how many, for example, Estonians do live in the United Kingdom—it’s around 15,000, up to a maximum of 17,000 people. So, it’s not too many. But I will, with Triinu’s help, figure out—.

[42] Eluned Morgan: Okay, that will be useful.

[43] Mr Bambus: So, I know that, for example, as concerns British nationals, we have 600. And, after deployment of British troops, in the framework of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [correction: the Enhanced Forward Presence of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization], it’s now doubled. So, we’re talking about 1,300.

14:45

[44] Eluned Morgan: And is there any kind of empathy or sympathy with the situation of Britain in terms of some of the reasons why people were uncomfortable about continuing to be part of the EU? You know, it was largely on the basis of immigration—the fact that we have 3 million EU citizens, and, actually, certainly compared to your country, if you had anything like that proportion, the impact on your economy would be significant, is my guess. Is there an understanding that, actually, because more people are likely to come to Britain because of the English language and things—? Is there a degree of understanding, and a degree of understanding that, for example, our NHS system is—once you’re here you can access it, once you pay into the system, whereas lots of other EU nations actually have to pay insurance and that, actually, the rules of the EU on freedom of movement don’t allow for any accommodation for those differences in the provision of services? Is that something that has any resonance at all in the member states?

[45] Mr Bambus: Thank you. If I may start with the comments on the Estonia perspective, Estonia, having a population of 1.3 million—it’s definitely one of the smallest in the EU, and, if we are talking about the foreigners who are living in the country, Estonia is one of the biggest homes for foreigners, but it’s due to the past and under the times of occupation. So, we know very well what it means to accommodate foreigners. However, if we’re talking just about the EU nationals and free movement of people and in capitals, we find it very good, really, in Estonia. I think that it’s also to the benefit of all member states if we are talking about the EU nationals who are working and making benefits for the respective countries where they live.

[46] If we’re talking about those who are staying illegally, I must admit that, well, there are some countries that have not maybe used the EU regulations properly as they say that, if you have not found a job or if you are not studying in the country, the authorities of these respective countries may send you back to the country of origin. So, there are some countries that have not followed the rules, and it’s very much up to their Governments.

[47] Talking about the work—

[48] Eluned Morgan: Can I just come back to you on that, then? So, are you implying that the UK Government has basically not been as strict in terms of their ability, if people don’t have jobs, to exclude them from the country in some way? That’s the implication of what you’re saying.

[49] Mr Bambus: Yes, there are regulations that say that the Governments have the right to send back the people who are not legally staying in the country, so, having no work, if they don’t contribute to the society—. In this respect, I think that those EU nationals who are living in the UK and have contributed in different ways to the UK, it would be very fair that they will be treated also very fairly in the future. It’s the same also concerning British nationals who are living in the EU member states and also working, studying, living there. And it means also, if they are paying the taxes to the local government, to the state, they should have also the access to the social care, to the NHS, to the education, and I think that it’s a democratic way to treat foreigners who are living in your country.

[50] Eluned Morgan: Okay. I think that’s right. I think the impact on the economy of Wales in particular, if we had to exclude EU citizens, would be immense—it would be enormous. There’s not one abattoir, for example, in Wales, where it is not EU vets who are populating them. There are no British vets in these abattoirs. So, if, for some reason, they all went home, we’d be in severe trouble, and there’s the NHS and all kinds of things, but—

[51] Mr Bambus: If I’m not mistaken, I’ve heard also statistics about not only social care, NHS, but also the farming and service sectors. So, there are many sectors where, right now, once again, the EU nationals are contributing to the welfare of the country.

[52] Eluned Morgan: Hugely, yes. Can I ask you something else, just in terms of article 50? Is your interpretation of article 50, if the UK found that ‘This is just not going to work for us’, and that the impacts on the economy would be huge, that it would be revocable? What’s your view, and what will the council’s view be on that?

[53] David Rees: Obviously—[Inaudible.]—statement from the council—[Inaudible.]

[54] Mr Bambus: Yes, indeed. I just wanted to say that the interpretation of legal instruments, including article 50, is definitely not in my competence, but I’m sure that people in Brussels, at the Commission, have worked on that. Because initially, when article 50 was written into the treaty, nobody knew ahead that there would be, really, a necessity to implement it. Nevertheless, I think that all kinds of options might be on the table, but at the current stage, we are all working on the idea that the UK is leaving, and now we have to find the best solution—the best deal—for all of us.

[55] Eluned Morgan: Can I just ask one more question—

[56] David Rees: One small one.

[57] Eluned Morgan: —on something completely different? And that is, your focus on energy. I note that you want to empower consumers, which is very welcome. What about fuel poverty? Is that something that is on your agenda at all? Because it’s all very well for us to drive up renewables and drive up and get a better market that works—[Inaudible]—electricity, cross-border, but, actually, it strikes me that the EU has never really taken the issue of fuel poverty seriously. Is that something that you would consider?

[58] Mr Bambus: We would like to work more on the renewable energy, indeed. There are member states who have achieved already quite a lot, but still the connectivity between the member states is also important for us, and independence—so, not to be dependent on.

[59] Eluned Morgan: Yes. This is not about that. It’s about people who can’t afford to pay for their energy. Affordability—

[60] Mr Bambus: Yes, I took already, as a bigger picture, the country because there is also the lack of energy resources for some countries. I understood that the question was phrased more about how the EU would be more independent from the others.

[61] Eluned Morgan: I understand that every member state is supposed to come up with their own programme for how they tackle fuel poverty within their own country. Is that something that is being monitored and carried out? Is that something perhaps you could look into?

[62] Mr Bambus: I have to check it about the details of these sectors concerning the energy during our presidency. I’m sure that, again, there are serious questions about how to—

[63] David Rees: Perhaps you could just drop us a note when you’ve had a look at what the policies and priorities are.

[64] Mr Bambus: Yes, I will come back, if I may, on that.

[65] David Rees: Mark Isherwood on this.

[66] Mark Isherwood: Yes, I endorse that because we see it as increasing here as part of a social agenda, although related to energy not the energy agenda. Given that one of your four priorities is a safe and secure Europe, how important is it that the agreements that come out of this safeguard security and defence co-operation with the UK?

[67] Mr Bambus: It is very important. It’s not only important that the European Union and NATO have very good co-operation, but also, if I may say, bilaterally, for Estonia, it’s very important to continue the military co-operation, and military co-operation in broader scale, starting from the traditional or the conventional military co-operation, but also including the cyber, the combined and mixed defence issues. So, absolutely, it’s very, very important, and we would like to continue this co-operation, as I said, bilaterally and also multilaterally between the European Union and NATO. So, building up also the necessary infrastructures or understandings.

[68] Mark Isherwood: Thank you.

[69] David Rees: Just the last question from me, and I’m very grateful for your time. We’ve gone a bit beyond the time we’ve allocated. You talk about one of the other priorities being a digital Europe and the free movement of data. By the time we may be able to achieve that, of course, the UK may well be no longer part of the EU. How do you, as a presidency, seem to want to drive that forward to ensure that—? Will we have two different pathways, one for the EU-27 plus one, with how the UK fits into that pathway, or will you be driving it forward as a totality of 28 at this stage?

[70] Mr Bambus: Thank you. It’s not the only area where we would like to know the future and how it will work out in two or three years’ time. We don’t have to pay, any more, the roaming tariffs from this summer, but the work started already, a few years ago. So, we also intend and are committed to start the free movement of data during our presidency and to ask the following presidency to continue the work. How it will work out with the United Kingdom—it’s too early to say, but I must say that, so far, the co-operation between Estonia and the United Kingdom has been very good, and I sincerely hope that this co-operation will continue also in the future, whether it will be EU-UK or bilaterally. So, step by step, let’s see. Of course, we would be more interested that, as much as possible, everybody will be integrated in the same area.

[71] David Rees: Thank you. And, finally, you indicated you had discussions with the First Minister earlier today.

[72] Mr Bambus: Yes.

[73] David Rees: Clearly, Estonia is a smaller nation, population-wise, than ours, but it has built its services up, in particular its IT and digital services. Have you got any advice, perhaps, for the First Minister as to how we can take our economy forward in that direction?

[74] Mr Bambus: As I said, we had very frank and very good talks today, and much longer than we expected. I really said and offered that if there is interest to develop the bilateral co-operation in IT or e-services or digital services or cyber security, where Estonia is a flag country in the EU, and I may even say probably globally, then we are open for such a kind of co-operation. I’m very delighted that the First Minister accepted such a kind of co-operation proposal, and we will talk later also with other people. We have to come back rather sooner than later to these co-operation frameworks. So, I’m very delighted that the interest in co-operation with Estonia and the EU is very, very big.

[75] David Rees: Thank you very much. Time has come against us and we’ve gone beyond what we should have, so can I thank you very much for your time this afternoon? It’s been very interesting to listen to the priorities for Estonia during the presidency of the EU. You will receive a copy of the transcript for any factual inaccuracies, and please let us know as soon as possible if you identify any so we can correct them. Thank you for your time.

[76] Mr Bambus: Okay. And I will come back to those two questions to which I didn’t know the answer.

[77] Ms Rajasalu: The number of EU citizens in Estonia is growing by 3,000 a year, but identifying the total number—it’s partially because they don’t need a residence permit to live there. But I’m guessing it’s about maybe 20,000.

[78] Mr Bambus: Don’t guess. Let’s come to the complete figures. [Laughter.] Thank you.

[79] David Rees: Thank you very much for your time.

14:58

Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note

[80] David Rees: For Members, we have item 3 of the agenda, papers to note. Are Members content to note the letter from the First Minister regarding the committee’s report on the great repeal Bill? Thank you. And also the correspondence from the Llywydd regarding the implementation of the Wales Act 2017. Are Members happy to note both? Thank you very much.

14:59

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd am Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

Cynnig:

Motion:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

[81] David Rees: I move on to the next item. I now resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of this meeting under Standing Order 17.42. Are Members content? I see they are, so we therefore move into private for the remainder of this meeting.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:59.
The public part of the meeting ended at 14:59.